Service Shoulder Power

[johncraig]

Could you explain what you think are the differences, if there are any, in a baseball throw upwards and a serve? You will see the same shoulder and wrist actions in both. Could a serve be nothing more than attempting to throw the racquet? Would this not give you the on edge initial position and the opening of the face to the ball (pronation/shoulder rotation) and lack of wrist flexion?
Also, I'd like to order your wrist device to test my theory on a baseball throw - when will it be available?

Thanks,
Jon

Hi Jon,
i do believe the serve motion is much the same as throwing a ball up - above the 45 degree angle. This is an excellent exercise to develop the ideal motion. The devise remains in developmental stage and test marketing. The product is in the development stages.
However, you can actually get a brace that simulates what my serve trainerdoes. Here is a link to a product that I used in the testing phase:

http://www.big5sportinggoods.com/store/details/ace-reversible-splint-wrist-

The one issue is the metal insert is too sharp on the edge, so using it is not comfortable. If you modify or replace the insert, you can simulate
what my product does. That, combined with my serve training video series, will give you everything you need to build a professional motion.

[jdcremin]

Could you explain what you think are the differences, if there are any, in a baseball throw upwards and a serve? You will see the same shoulder and wrist actions in both. Could a serve be nothing more than attempting to throw the racquet? Would this not give you the on edge initial position and the opening of the face to the ball (pronation/shoulder rotation) and lack of wrist flexion?
Also, I'd like to order your wrist device to test my theory on a baseball throw - when will it be available?

Thanks,
Jon

[gzhpcu]

Great question! The set-up really occurs in the trophy position phase of the serve. The palm of your playing hand (and racket face) should stay slightly down, never open into what is commonly called the waiter's tray position. If you keep the palm down the racket will naturally fall into the drop and approach the ball on edge, so the shoulder can take over. Please let me know if you have questions. Thanks, John

Thanks John, I think the palm down on the take back is really important!

[johncraig]

And the shoulder joint is connected to the...



I was going to say that but then I realized that it would have been dust in the wind. The good old ignore list.

I was curious about faultsnaces comment about how the video inspired him to better serving. There didn't seem to be a particular piece of advice...a swing thought...that would provoke such an epiphany. It did cause me to watch the video...twice.

So then the question becomes...back to gzhpcu,,,what causes a good racquet drop? This is where it gets to be a bit complicated. It's in the back swing...which is designed to allow the racquet "to drop" behind the servers back. Complicated? Because various servers get it there in different routes. But the truly great have a fundamentally correct (FC) backswing. I'll bet your series about the serve had some good insight regards the backswing. If I could only find it.

Hi Don, Thanks for your excellent comments! I do address (in a unique way) the backswing and racket drop in my video series, which is just about ready for publication. Stay tuned!

[johncraig]

The article makes sense. My question is how to set up the initial shoulder rotation? Force arm supination?

Great question! The set-up really occurs in the trophy position phase of the serve. The palm of your playing hand (and racket face) should stay slightly down, never open into what is commonly called the waiter's tray position. If you keep the palm down the racket will naturally fall into the drop and approach the ball on edge, so the shoulder can take over. Please let me know if you have questions. Thanks, John

[don_budge]

Sorry I wasn't clearer - yes, the video is very short, it's really just a little tennis tip sort of thing. But the net effect was I got some mental focus on my shoulder, specifically the need for internal rotation. It caused me to mentally 'check' my shoulder rotation in the serve. And the auto-correction that I applied was to wind up the shoulder more - definitely more racket drop as has been said, but I've focused on racket drop in the past. By focusing on my shoulder, the change seems to be that I've gotten the racket drop closer in to my back, and there's a slight difference in the rotation angle of my torso as well - didn't think about this, just happened in the course of serving a bunch and getting the serve in with the focus on the shoulder rotation. I guess I would sum it all up by saying that I'm focused on the shoulder rotation, but that is causing a number of changes to flow from that - changes I've thought about and tried to do in the past (racket drop, torso rotation), but haven't been (as) successful with before.

-frank

Interesting...and insightful. A tennis tip morphs into a swing thought. As a result the vectors start to line up correctly. Net result...effortless power. Excellent explanation as to the process...clear and concise. This is much the process in a golf "swing thought". As you know...the human brain only has room for one swing thought at a time. Sometimes that swing thought will trigger a corrective process much as you have described.

Since I don't serve as much any more competitively or otherwise...if I find myself in a situation where I must serve and playing points I try to key in on a couple of things:

Number one...the toss. If I can get the ball consistently where I want it, it will have a most positive effect on my serve results.

Number two...feeling the racquet fall behind me at the end of my backswing. Once I feel that racquet head in free fall behind me I know it is time to start the forward motion in earnest.

Number three...turn the shoulders. Once I have the feeling that numbers one and two are consistent and I have the timing it is time to take it up a notch and try to rotate a bit more for that exponential power booster.

I figure that with 12 or 16 practice serve I can get #1 and #2 in pretty good order. As I begin to play the shoulder rotation gradually becomes the focus.

Thanks for your thoughts.

[faultsnaces]

And the shoulder joint is connected to the...
I was curious about faultsnaces comment about how the video inspired him to better serving. There didn't seem to be a particular piece of advice...a swing thought...that would provoke such an epiphany. It did cause me to watch the video...twice.

So then the question becomes...back to gzhpcu,,,what causes a good racquet drop? This is where it gets to be a bit complicated. It's in the back swing...which is designed to allow the racquet "to drop" behind the servers back. Complicated? Because various servers get it there in different routes. But the truly great have a fundamentally correct (FC) backswing. I'll bet your series about the serve had some good insight regards the backswing. If I could only find it.

Sorry I wasn't clearer - yes, the video is very short, it's really just a little tennis tip sort of thing. But the net effect was I got some mental focus on my shoulder, specifically the need for internal rotation. It caused me to mentally 'check' my shoulder rotation in the serve. And the auto-correction that I applied was to wind up the shoulder more - definitely more racket drop as has been said, but I've focused on racket drop in the past. By focusing on my shoulder, the change seems to be that I've gotten the racket drop closer in to my back, and there's a slight difference in the rotation angle of my torso as well - didn't think about this, just happened in the course of serving a bunch and getting the serve in with the focus on the shoulder rotation. I guess I would sum it all up by saying that I'm focused on the shoulder rotation, but that is causing a number of changes to flow from that - changes I've thought about and tried to do in the past (racket drop, torso rotation), but haven't been (as) successful with before.

-frank

[don_budge]

And the shoulder joint is connected to the...

Phil on the shoulder issue guess what?? Racket drop.

I was going to say that but then I realized that it would have been dust in the wind. The good old ignore list.

I was curious about faultsnaces comment about how the video inspired him to better serving. There didn't seem to be a particular piece of advice...a swing thought...that would provoke such an epiphany. It did cause me to watch the video...twice.

So then the question becomes...back to gzhpcu,,,what causes a good racquet drop? This is where it gets to be a bit complicated. It's in the back swing...which is designed to allow the racquet "to drop" behind the servers back. Complicated? Because various servers get it there in different routes. But the truly great have a fundamentally correct (FC) backswing. I'll bet your series about the serve had some good insight regards the backswing. If I could only find it.

[John Yandell]

Phil on the shoulder issue guess what?? Racket drop.

[John Yandell]

Frank,
So far no one has posted. I will look into whether we can make them register without subscribing...

Phil,
Personally I enjoy the psychosis of tennis warehouse,,,

[gzhpcu]

The article makes sense. My question is how to set up the initial shoulder rotation? Force arm supination?

[gzhpcu]

Just as long as it does not get like the tenniswarehouse forum...

[faultsnaces]

We are experimenting with letting non subscribers post...

Please at least make them register, so we don't have completely anon posting.... (The 'presidential' thread might get rather out of hand with totally anon posting, e.g.)

-frank

[klacr]

Hi Kyle, Great! I will send you an email through your USPTA website with my contact information. I look forward to meeting you!

Got it! Likewise John. Thanks and see you in Indian Wells.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[johncraig]

Just have to say that this quick video was HUGE for me: somehow, just thinking / focusing a little bit on this internal rotation really helped my serve instantly! It's very rare that little tips help me at all - usually they make things (much) worse. But I saw this vid just before I headed out to play yesterday, and as I was warming up, the shoulder rotation popped into my head. With just a small amount of thought about it, I suddenly saw a significant increase in pace - something I have been working on for months now.

I feel that focusing on the rotation led me to 'preload' my shoulder better during the windup, and I definitely got a lot more arm-over-arm rotation as a consequence of this little focus. I reason that you can't internally rotate unless your arm is straight - and you can't hit the ball with a straight arm unless your arms are 'cartwheeling' - thus this little bit of focus results in a significant change of mechanics...

THANKS!!
-frank

PS: odd that the site let me post without being logged in (Guest above is me)

Hi Frank, I am so glad to hear this video was a big help to your serve. Thanks, John